The Stigma Conversations

Doing Anti-Racism. With Geraldine Onek and Jasmine Patel

February 17, 2023 Geraldine Onek and Jasmine Patel Season 1 Episode 4
The Stigma Conversations
Doing Anti-Racism. With Geraldine Onek and Jasmine Patel
Show Notes Transcript

How are racism and stigma power linked? How can education empower us to face the past and tell new stories? And why must we break historical silences? Sociologist Imogen Tyler talks to fellow activists from Lancaster Black History Group, formed after a Black Lives Matter Vigil in the city in 2020 – which few know was once the fourth largest slave trading city in the UK.

Teacher Geraldine Onek – who came to the UK as a child refugee from Sudan – describes working with schoolchildren to teach them about slavery and centre the lives of Black Lancastrians. Student Jasmine Patel describes her research, with fellow school pupils, into the city’s slavery family trees. Together, they show how facing the past is empowering - and what  anti-racism means.

Note: This episode was recorded in Nov 2022, at which point The Tate had not responded to this letter described by Jasmine Patel. .

Credits

Host: Imogen Tyler
Guests: Geraldine Onek & Jasmine Patel
Executive & Development Producer: Alice Bloch
Project Lead: Imogen Tyler 
Project Officer: Danielle Galway
Sound Engineer: David Crackles
Music & Artwork: Bruce Bennett

Episode resources

  • Lancaster Black History Group feat. resources for schools
  • The slave trade and the economic development of eighteenth-century Lancaster  Melinda Elder (1992)
  • Race, the Floating Signifier Stuart Hall (1997)   
  • Doing reparatory history: bringing ‘race’ and slavery home Catherine Hall (2018)
  • Ghostly Presences, Servants and Runaways: Lancaster's Emerging Black Histories and their Memorialization 1687–1865 by Alan Rice (2020) in Britain’s Black Past ed. Gretchen Gerzina
  • Freedom Seekers: Escaping from Slavery in Restoration London - Simon Newman (2022)  
  • The Liverpool Slave Trade, Lancaster and its Environs  Melinda Elder (2007)
  • A Fistful of Shells: West Africa from the Rise of the Slave Trade to the Age of Revolution Toby Green (2020) 
  • Slavery at Sea: Terror, Sex, and Sickness in the Middle Passage  Sowande’ Mustakeem (2016)
  • The Slave Ship: A Human History Marcus Rediker (2008)
  • Saltwater Slavery: A Middle Passage from Africa to American Diaspora Stephanie Smallwood (2008)
  • Blood Legacy: Reckoning with a Family’s Story of Slavery Alex Renton (2021)
  • Sugar in the Blood: A Family's Story of Slavery and Empire Andrea Stuart (2012)

Find extended reading lists and learn more about The Stigma Conversations at  The Sociological Review

Take Action!

The Slavery Family Trees project
Lancaster Black History Group
The Judges’ Lodgings Museum
International Slavery Museum

Imogen Tyler:

Welcome back to the Stigma Conversations with me, Imogen Tyler. If you're new here, you might ask, what's new to say about stigma? And if you're a seasoned listener, well– hopefully you know my answer by now. But I'll say it again because it matters. I know today we're seeing all sorts of taboo busting conversations going on about topics such as stigma and mental health. This is undeniably great. Talking about how stigma makes us feel isn't just essential – it can be lifesaving. It pulls us away from the dehumanisation, the division that stigma creates. But I've come to think that whilst these kinds of conversations are totally vital, we also need to ask some bigger questions about how stigma is produced. And why once we do that – look at the big structural stuff of power, at history – we can start to see how stigmas wrapped up in politics, economics, capitalism, colonialism, patriarchy. That means we can start to see stigma as a power, a practice and machine – something made to serve the powerful and that can actually be empowering. It means we might stop blaming ourselves, might stop thinking "that's just how things have to be" and ask for better. In this series I've been meeting inspirational academics, activists and frontline workers to help me reflect on how stigma works, where it comes from, and how we might resist.

Helen Greatorex:

If you're outraged about something, the chances are it's linked to some sort of policy that could be changed, that could then improve people's lives.

Andy Knox:

My goodness me, why the hell would you want to not be woke? Why wouldn't you want to be awake to the issues of injustice in the world, to the realities of stigmatisation and its effects in society?

Professor Alice Bloch:

We always have to understand history and the past to understand the present and the way in which stigma and labelling people and stigmatising people reproduces itself.

Imogen Tyler:

So far we've heard how stigma marks some people out as lesser than others. We've also talked about stigma and poverty – something so entangled here in the UK – with histories of class, citizenship and race – and today we're going to be talking about stigma and racism. The cultural fear – as Stuart Hall argued – that racism is a badge, a token, a sign, a political practice of classification. And as we've seen in previous episodes, the badge of racism has long been employed as othering practice – a colouring device to dehumanise people – from enslaved people, colonial subjects, non citizens, refugees, migrants – racism can be understood in this sense, as a form of stigmatisation – a system of marks. When I set out to better understand racism through the lens of stigma, I turned the place where I live – Lancaster in Northwest England. In the 1700s, Lancaster was the fourth largest slave trading centre in England, was deeply involved in the Atlantic slave trade and wider slavery business. Slavers here had vast commercial networks in the West Indies and America's importing goods produced by enslaved people, from mahogany to spices to cotton. And over time, slave trading families accumulated land and property and their enriched descendants became mayors and politicians and dominated local life – leaving that legacy in how the city looks today. So when Black Lives Matter protests happened here in 2020, attention focused on Lancaster's hidden history. The grave of a slave trading family was defaced, and protesters – many of them schoolchildren, students – gathered at the quay were slave ships once set sail. It was clear that any movement for racial and social justice here has to contend with that history and has to educate people about that history – including the hidden stuff. Today I'm with two activists whose work really testifies to that. They're Geraldine Onek, – a teacher who came to Lancaster as a child refugee from South Sudan and who after joining the Black Lives Matter protests co founded Lancaster Black History community group with her friend Rebecca Novell. Also with us there's Jasmine Patel – who's in her first year at Edinburgh uni and got involved with the group when she was still at school. And I met them both through my work with that same group – where we fight racism through education in our community. Geraldine described what it was like to go to those protests in 2020.

Geraldine Onek:

It was through just attending that. I just realised the sheer volume of support and allyship in Lancaster. We went on the steps and my sister actually spoke out to the crowd – because it was quite organic – it was, you know, it wasn't a rehearsed thing. This was very... something real that was happening to our community. And we were trying to get the wider public – especially living in a city where it's predominantly white – that's quite a difficult task in itself. And when we left that day, I didn't, I knew that it couldn't be the end. I was like, oh, there's something niggling me. I think you can – you can't just be an activist do a little show on a step and then, you know. It's always what's next? What's the impact? So Rebecca Novell and I decided– we know what's happening in Bristol was we can see that they're topping statues into the river – what's happening here? like Lancaster, must have its own, like, you know, skeletons in the closet. So we were like, let's find this hidden history. And let's see if there is any black history. So it was through connections and zoom calls, that we co founded that group and managed to get academics, historians, means members, faith organisations all involved. And it just escalated, really hasn't it?

Imogen Tyler:

It certainly has escalated. One thing that was really interesting to me from the outset – is after the initial vigil, there were vigils on other evenings that carried on over the weeks that followed– and they started to really concentrate around the history. So like, people were joining hands on the quayside – where there's a memorial to enslaved Africans connected to Lancaster slave trade. And it felt to me like it... there was a real sense around that, you know, the ghosts coming up and saying – this was the fourth largest slave trading port in Britain. And it's not fully recognised in this city or it's history. So it was quite interesting to me – and then you got in touch with me I think. But I love the fact that from the beginning – and I don't know if it's you or Petra, your sister who said – you know"this is this is not a moment, it's a movement". And that's become kind of the motto, the history group, that Black History group, which I think is... We are a movement, I think–sometimes a chaotic one – because we're involved in so many different things now. But also from the beginning, was that mission that our role – as the Black History group – is to fight racism through education. So yeah, is there anything else you want to reflect on around just, you know, the scale of activity?

Geraldine Onek:

You know, like you said, two and a half years ago, I remember sending emails out to schools say – look, we're, we're a new group. We're trying to educate the community, especially schools about Lancaster's hidden history. With it being a local history unit – which we know is a statutory part of the curriculum – would you consider, you know, ushelping you in teaching this unit? And I'll be honest, it was quite disheartening to like, get only the odd reply. But it was a difficult time when I understood being a teacher myself, like, it was covid time. And then you fast forward two and a half years, and we've got 63 schools locally – who have committed and said that they will embed this into their curriculum – not just as a one off, but year on year out. So then they know that every primary school child who leaves that Primary School will go into the world having that experience of going around those sites in Lancaster linked to the slave trade, knowing about black history. And I think we've always said, like you said – fighting racism through education – because if we can teach about the past, then it helps us to like, forge a better future. And I think when we talk like about stigma, like you said, we are now a group kind of, kind of highlighting putting that spotlight on a you know, touchy subject – and there was a backlash, you know, from our group – and we did we receive negativity in terms of from our community – the past is in the past and what you're doing dredging this back up and get over it. And I just think – for me personally – it was always like, how do I make this be a concern for everyone and not just people of colour? So I think going from schools – that's the first you know, start from the foundation. I've always believed start from as young as possible, even with the sensitivity of the topic, it's achievable.

Imogen Tyler:

I mean, you just a tour de force, the work with schools, it just blows my mind. And then there's the other that was all the other projects – the slavery banner, the sewing Cafe Lancaster collaboration that we did, where they community volunteers made a banner – from all the research that we did in with different groups – and how like all the museums are involved – how they're recaptioning all their collections, based on our community research. I just feel so honoured to be part of this movement with you all. So it's just great to talk about it. And the massive community conference we had at the university – 200 participants, Catherine Hall, and you know, Richard Benjamin, from the International Slavery museum coming to hear us and our community research participants talking about their research. So Jasmine – so one of the first projects we started when we formed was the Slavery Family Trees project and we got funded by a group called Necessity to do – and it's all in the pandemic, so it's hard to remember now. And we got about, I think it was eight groups researching different families in Lancaster – who were slave owners, slave traders, who were people, merchants dealing with plantation economies, bringing in sugar, etc, etc. So we wanted to kind of right do this sort of history, this map of these families, and you were then at school, and you got an email, presumably from your history teacher that said – do you want to be involved? And then we would meet online and do the project. So do you want to talk about what that was like? Why you got involved? And also which family research and what you found out?

Jasmine Patel:

Yeah, so I think I just got involved because I just had a kind of a genuine interest in this topic. Because the curriculum was different whilst I was in my lower years at school, it hadn't undergone any reforms to include local histories. So I didn't actually know anything about Lancaster's history and its connections with the slave trade. So yeah, I got involved. So the group from Lancaster Girls Grammar, we were researching the Lindow family. And Lindow – as we found out – he was involved in almost every single aspect of the slave trade. He was unscrupulous, was involved in the direct trade, the Inter-American slave trade, he was a slave owner, plantar, ship owner – exploring his story just really demonstrated the interconnected nature of slave trade economies within Lancaster,

Imogen Tyler:

One of the one of the things that came up through the Lindow research was also really starting to think about Black Lancastrians. So people who'd arrived in various ways and we don't, or we can't always fill in the details of how – but had arrived to live in Lancaster and actually that thinking about Black agency and what it would have been like to be Black in 18th century Lancaster – and Lindow is one of those families, isn't he? – where we started to think about Black presence. So Lindow's house – just for the listener – is right next to Jasmine's school, and it still exists, it's a it's a very large grand Georgian house. And in that house –we're almost as sure we could be – there was a Black slave servant who belonged to Lindow, living in that house called John Chance and that, I think that became part of the work, wasn't it? That we started to think about Black lives and Black presence. I think that was that was really interesting that this house still stands. And I know Jasmine– you got to go into the house, and have a look round it as well, which is amazing. And I know also that your school group actually made a trail and started doing work so that you can feed back into the school curriculum. So whenever that unit on transatlantic slavery is taught in the school in the future, it will be tied literally to the local place of where the school sits – Lindow Square that it sits in and also Lindow's house. And also that reminder that there were Black Lancastrians here in the 18th century living here. So at the end of that project, I, me and you worked a bit together, didn't we – writing a letter? Do you want to just say something about that?

Jasmine Patel:

Yes. So we wrote a letter to the Tate Gallery. So I'd been researching one of the portraits that hung in number one Queen Square – Lindow's house – and this portrait depicts William Lindow and his wife, Abigail Rawlinson – she was a member of the Rawlinson family– they were major slave traders in Lancaster at the time. And one of the ways Lindow made his fortune was by marrying into that family. So the portrait has Lindow and his wife. And then in the background, you can see some ships. And the caption on this portrait by the Tate Gallery – it never alluded to his connections with the slave trade. And we were obviously quite concerned by this. And so we wanted to change this. So we came up with an alternative caption, which clearly stated Lindow's involvement as a plantar, a slave owner, unfortunately, the Tate Gallery have still not gotten back to us.

Imogen Tyler:

Maybe they will when they listen to this, Jasmine hey?

Jasmine Patel:

Yeah, but obviously quite disappointing for us.

Imogen Tyler:

Well, we're not given up yet though. And it's making me think about one project actually, that we're all involved in. So this is a project where Lancaster Black History group has partnered with Judges Lodging Museum in Lancaster to help them reframe their collections. So this is like a grand Georgian building. It's where the judge stayed when he came to Lancaster for the Assizes courts. And it's now a museum and in that museum, they've got lots of portaits – like the one Jasmine was talking about of Lindow. They've got portraits of merchant slave traders, slave owners and their families in the museum – as well as a very large collection of Gillows furniture – and Gillows was a very famous 18th century furniture maker. And all the exotic woods like mahogany came from the plantation into Lancaster port. And it was one of the biggest businesses in Lancaster – the second business, biggest business – shipbuilding was the first – including building slave ships in the 18th century. Anyway, all of that aside – what is so interesting about the project with this, the Judge's Lodging – is we got the money to commission an artist to produce a permanent set of five portraits that are going to sit in this museum – opposite the portraits of these Lancastrians that were involved in slavery business. So do you want to tell us a little bit about – because Jasmine, I know you're on the commissioning group – about that, and about the artist and what she's doing.

Jasmine Patel:

We chose the artist, Lela Harris. She's a local artist from Kendall. And she's absolutely brilliant. So she's done lots of research herself – building on the research that we've done within the Lancaster Black History group on Black Lancastrians – and she's basically exploring and trying to highlight through her portraits, Black agency. So it's about kind of. dispelling this myth that learning about Black histories is all sort of doom and gloom. And we're just trying to show that actually, it can be enlightening and empowering to learn about these histories.

Imogen Tyler:

And alongside these portraits, Geraldine, I know you've been working with Lela, in the museum running workshops for kids and the kids artworks are going to be displayed – which I think it's fantastic, as well – as part of the exhibition launch. Can you tell us about the workshops? And I'm really interested in like, what Jasmine has just said about Black agency, and how I know you've been working that into the workshops, thinking about runaways, etc.

Geraldine Onek:

Yeah, so when we did phasing – past phase one, the focus was teaching them what the slave trade was. So this time, we wanted to make sure that the limelight was on those Black stories. So we focused on Igbo boy, using the primary source of an advert – showing them this is a real advert from that period of time. And it was so interesting, because there's so much descriptive language in it – describing his height, his posture, his features, his dialect – and from this, we got the children to think about what's missing. And the first thing they're like "he's got no name". And we then discovered, okay, here's some Igbo tribes. So we learned about the Igbo culture, modern day South Nigeria. So I took in examples of African clothing, I showed them the different garments that that Igbo culture today would wear – and we'll discuss that what life would have been like for him living there, you know, try and give him this agency in terms of giving him a name and identity. We gave him a name, you know, an African name from his culture. So the kids chose"Afamefuna" – which means my name will not be forgotten. And then we talked about how this was done onto him. It didn't define him. He was probably someone's son, a brother – we talked about all the different strands or who he may have become or who he may have been. And now I really enjoyed it because it was, it was really nice to just talk about someone in terms of a being as opposed to a possession, we really wanted to highlight that they were people first, then they were, they were enslaved. And that's very important for like the language use as well, when we're teaching them. So we always say, enslaved African as opposed to a slave.

Imogen Tyler:

I think that emphasis on Black agency is so important. And actually, what's made all of the community research possible is things like these new digital resources. So the Igbo boy – who was an enslaved African boy, who was he was owned by a Reverend in Heysham, which is a port town Near Lancaster – we know about him because of the traces left in a runaway slave advert that is part of this big database that is now publicly accessible. So there's also something about, like this public education and resources that mean we can do public history making together now in a way that wasn't possible before. Geraldine, it strikes me that – and you mentioned it a bit earlier – but it strikes me that when we're talking about white privilege, people can be so like defensive. And so I suppose this is partly what I'm trying to get about education. You know, people get very defensive, like you said – history is in the past, we don't want to know, you know, why can't we just focus on the positive or the future? – And actually, when, when we opened when I asked you the first question, Jasmine, you said – I didn't know anything, and it's like, if only everybody, you know, came with a sense of not knowing and then openness to saying, I don't know, you know – that would be so fantastic. But part of I think shattering the kind of stigma around admitting not knowing, is part of the difficulty of trying to do anti racist education and work. So I was just wondering – I think we aren't doing it – but how do we constantly reflect or come back– Geraldine - to that defensiveness? How do we tackle that in different ways?

Geraldine Onek:

it's making sure that we do it in a collaborative way. There's nothing worse when you're trying to educate someone, and they feel that they're spoken down to and I think what in a way we do it – we do it in a way that it's a discussion and informing them and using facts and evidence – and so they can become more knowledgeable in that topic. You know, I – I hand on heart – I put my hand up, I said, I didn't even know what BLM stood for two years ago. And as a Black person to say that, you know, it's– t's okay to not know everything. And I always teach even children I said – adults don't know everything, every day is changing, we're finding out more information day to day. And if organisations like churches are putting their hands up and saying – look, we had a role to play – and facing this past, because it's the addressing it I think – for me, personally – we have to address it first. So you have to admit it happened in order to move on. And I think a lot of people today, it's a bitter pill to swallow because some of them are still benefiting it, from it, you know– in terms of inheritance and these Georgian houses that they've they live in – because their descendants may or may have not profited through the slave trade in order to purchase it. So it's looking inside themselves and thinking, what is it that's stopping me from actually wanting to learn more? And yeah, there are people making changes in their small ways. And I think we've antiracism is that proactivity, isn't it? like actively having those discussions, even though they make you feel uncomfortable? And yes, in Lancaster, I think we are a great example of like openness to change – in terms of the pub, changing its name – acknowledging, oh, actually, Robert Gillow – we don't feel right, celebrating and having our pub named after him, let's do something about it. But making that action and using that informed knowledge to make that decision, even aware of the backlash they might receive – and they did get some – you know, and whatever change you do, whatever you, we attempt to do, it's always been in partnership with the community. We've always said that's the forefront. We will never do it if it wasn't agreed – if we were, if they weren't consulted. And that's why we do this community consultations. So it's something that they could become involved in.

Imogen Tyler:

Yeah. And I think it's fantastic. The way the way that we're doing it and how we work with that resistance in a way that's open – not just confrontational – I think that's part of, but that's part of why the diversity of the group is so great as well – because we can, we all speak to different communities as well. Jasmine you're now Secretary of Lancaster Black History group. But I also know you've just started university in Edinburgh. And I kind of wondered, you know, what have you taken from being part of the this movement to your new life as a student in Edinburgh? What kind of conversations are you having? And do you feel like your generation is better at talking about racism and inequality than the kind of resistances that I think Geraldine and I have both seen perhaps in older generations?

Jasmine Patel:

Yeah. So I think this generation is a very tolerant generation. We've grown up kind of seeing LGBTQ movements be successful. We've been through Black Lives Matter. And so I think we're all quite willing to learn. And I think we all know that grassroots movements can have a massive impact. And that's quite important that we know that these sorts of movements can be successful. I think at this university, a lot of people have an interest in politics, and current social issues. So it's been quite easy to actually start these conversations about kind of contentious, maybe, issues. And even I was telling people that I was doing this podcast later today, people were really interested. I think it's interesting, I'm studying in Edinburgh – and Edinburgh also has quite strong connections to the slave trade. I haven't really educated myself about the impacts of the slave trade here. But I'm ready to get involved in that – if I can – as well. And just building on my experiences.

Imogen Tyler:

Thanks so much. It's good to have that really hopeful positivity about the generation like you, Jasmine, so young, and yet, so very self reflexive. Geraldine, just final question to you – Geraldine. I know that you set up like us black history group with Rebecca– and she works as a social worker with refugee groups and communities. And you also, your own stories, as as coming to Lancaster as a refugee. And one thing I think that in my more academic work – not that this isn't my acadmic work – but of academic work that I do is try and think about how histories of racism, and histories of subjugation, exploitation, play out in ways that are very similar – but in ways that are also changing. And one group, it seems to me at the moment in Britain – who are the target of so much kind of social hatred, division, racism – are refugees. And I just wondered, you know, what your thoughts were about that in terms of how, as a Black History group, we've focused on specific histories, but actually– we're talking about racism in all its forms as the centre of what we do.

Geraldine Onek:

Yeah, it, witnessing how a country that welcomed me those many years ago, and how we became a city of sanctuary – that was something I was proud of. But to see the wider world, and the politics happening around refugee camps and the treatment, racism. Especially how if anything, is to happen in Lancaster, you know– they are the targeted group at the moment. They are the ones to blame, and it is the propaganda– it's what they're sold, its the papers that they read. Yet, the refugees, I mean, you know – they bring a wealth of experience and knowledge and culture. Lancaster has changed so much in a positive way, in terms of diversity. When I came here, we were one of the very few Black families living in Lancaster. And I walk into town and this many faces of different ethnicities and races, and it shows progress for me – I think personally, it feels like the city – this North West city – its getting there. And because we're embracing refugees – and I think we can lead by example. And you know, I'm proud of my refugee status. I do always start that – even though I have no remnants of my accent, of being born in South Sudan – I will start off we say I was born in South Sudan. I came here as a child refugee, and it's opportunities that Lancaster's... Lancaster has really embraced us and like you know that – what my sister said like– some of you red roses are as Black as us, kind of thing. It I think Lancaster is not a monolith now – in terms of the people you see – it's diverse, a Lancastrian person – like the Igbo boy with his broad dialect accent – can look like me. And I think I always wear my red rose as a badge of pride actually

Imogen Tyler:

Geraldine Onek and Jasmine Patel. And you can read more about the Lancaster Black History group and the Slavery Family Trees project through the links in our episode notes. It's so good see a voluntary community group achieve so much so quickly – challenging and transforming understandings of the histories of slavery and colonialism. And drawing on great public resources – such as the digital databases produced by the UCL in the form of the legacies of British Slavery project, the Slave Voyages database and the Runaway Slaves database – and using these databases to do urgent forms of political education in communities. I've been reflecting on all this in the context of my own work on histories of racial stigmatisation and resistance. And I want to foreground two things. First, we can't separate British history from histories of slavery and colonialism. To give you just one example, Lancashire's cotton mills are absolutely entangled with the Lancashire owned slave factories on the African coast and the Lancashire owned cotton plantations. They're part of the same global architecture of enclosure and exploitation. Second, our conversation today highlights – at least for me – the importance of bringing scholarship and academic expertise into the community and into activism for social change– of contesting stigma, politics, and social injustice – not only in journal articles, or in conference papers, but out there in the world beyond academia. Next up, I'll be continuing in the spirit of translating and speaking across research, professional expertise and social activism. When I meet Dr. Andy Knox – a GP, public health lead author and activist. We'll be talking about how structural problems – including stigmatisation –make us unwell, and how we now stand at a point, he describes as nothing short of apocalyptic. A moment he says – a revelation. It sounds dramatic, and it is. My producer was Alice Bloch, and the sound engineer was Dave Crackles. Please remember to share us far and wide including the episode notes full of readings for each show – because talking about stigma is part of how we end it. See you soon. Thanks for listening.